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In this adventure of Intelligence Matters, host Michael Morell speaks with David Shimer, columnist of “Rigged: America, Russia and 100 Years of Buried Balloter Interference.”

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Shimer provides examples of Russian and American balloter arrest in countries about the apple over about a century. He explains how Russia’s playbook has been activated afresh and in atypical agency to admission American autonomous processes — including in 2016. Morell and Shimer altercate agency the U.S. should try to bolster its defenses adjoin new abeyant Russian incursions in 2020. 

Highlights:

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INTELLIGENCE MATTERS — DAVID SHIMER —TRANSCRIPT

MICHAEL MORELL: David, acknowledge you for abutting us. It is absolute acceptable to accept you on Intelligence Matters.

DAVID SHIMER. Acknowledge you so abundant for accepting me. I’m so aflame to be here.

MICHAEL MORELL: Congratulations on your new book, Rigged: America, Russia and 100 Years of Buried Balloter Influence. I begin it to be an absolutely agitating read. And I would acclaim it to my listeners. It is absolutely appropriate accustomed the acclamation that is abandoned four and a bisected months away. So the book Chic is a history of buried balloter interference. So, David, conceivably two questions afore we dig into it. The aboriginal is, how did you arise to abode it? What got you absorbed in the absoluteness of the subject?

DAVID SHIMER: Yes. So I would say afterwards the 2016 election, I’ve been belief absolute acutely Russian and Soviet history, and the anticipation was aloof in my apperception that while Russia’s operation was advised as array of atypical and out of nowhere, that there ability be added of a history there. And I spent the summer of 2017 advertisement for The New York Times as an intern in Berlin. And while I was there, I was able to account a above East German intelligence administrator for about six hours, and he formed for the Stasi and he helped assassinate a amazing operation to baffle in an balloter activity in West Germany in 1972. 

So I started digging into that and concluded up spending aloof a year researching that operation acutely intensely. And already I had that operation array of established, I additionally in 2016, as a point of comparison, I anticipation ‘What abroad is out there?’ And afresh I was able to alpha advancing my PhD at Oxford. And while I did that, I aloof dug and dug, begin added and added operations above history of buried arrest in elections. And eventually I started aggregate them together, reestablishing array of an arc about this and aggravating to restore history to the accountable of buried balloter arrest from 1919 all the way through to our present moment.

MICHAEL MORELL: So aloof so our admirers are bright what we’re talking about, and this is the additional affectionate of basal question, what’s the analogue of buried balloter interference? So what are the altitude that accept to be met for you to alarm it that?

DAVID SHIMER: Exactly, yeah. And that’s essential. So a buried balloter arrest operation, it has to accommodated the abilities of those three words: covert, balloter and interference. So for article to be covert, it agency that it’s not attributable. It agency that the duke of the interfering amateur is hidden. So a accessible endorsement wouldn’t calculation because let’s say Barack Obama endorses the abide advance in the United Kingdom. That’s attributable. We apperceive he did that. But let’s say Russia releases e-mails through a third party. The aftereffect of that is visible. We see the emails, but it’s through WikiLeaks. So we don’t apperceive it was Russia and accordingly it’s covert. 

If something’s electoral, that agency that it’s targeting a autonomous vote of succession. It agency it’s targeting an balloter process. So, you know, a lot of association who’ve advised coups, staged coups in countries like Iran and Guatemala, that would not authorize because that is not targeting and targeting an balloter process. We’re talking about aback bodies are casting ballots for one baton or another. 

And afresh arrest agency that you’re deploying alive measures. It agency that you’re aggravating to admission what is happening. You’re not aloof watching, you’re acting. And that can ambit from you know, there are abounding adapted tactics. I’m abiding we’ll allocution about what those are. But the abstraction there is that you are, in fact, interfering. So in general, what I’m talking about is a buried adopted accomplishment to dispense a autonomous vote of succession. And aback you accommodated those three qualifications, you’re afresh agreeable in buried balloter interference.

MICHAEL MORELL: So, David, the book is disconnected into three parts. The continued history of buried balloter interference, including by the United States, our added contempo acquaintance with 2016 and a attending at what we charge to do to avert ourselves. So let’s booty anniversary of those in turn, forth with a brace of questions about the 2020 acclamation as well. 

So first, some questions about the continued history of this buried balloter interference. You begin in your analysis that both Russia and the United States accept a history of accomplishing this. But what I begin decidedly absorbing is what you articular as the key differences amid the two. One of those is that one country chock-full such arrest at one point and the added kept going. Why did the U.S. stop? What’s the acknowledgment to that question?

DAVID SHIMER: So I would say that maybe in agreement of the absolute arc of it — because whether the CIA did stop is array of allotment of a above adventure and that adventure can be burst bottomward into three phases.

And that is this broader history where, from 1919 up until 1948, the Soviet Union was interfering in elections all over the world, aboriginal beneath Vladimir Lenin, afresh Joseph Stalin. The U.S. wasn’t. In 1948, the CIA is accustomed to appoint in buried activity with the accurate purpose of interfering in the Italian acclamation in 1948 and afresh affianced in balloter arrest in abounding countries thereafter through the Cold War in antagonism with the Soviet KGB. 

A alteration afresh took abode afterwards the Cold War, area Russia, beneath Vladimir Putin, has angled bottomward on this practice, has been interfering in elections aggressively and frequently through added methods, accumulation new agenda accoutrement into his operations, admitting the CIA has confused abroad from this practice. The aftermost recorded instance that I could acquisition the CIA agreeable in buried balloter arrest was in 2000 in Serbia adjoin the tyrant Slobodan Milosevic. There was a agitation over whether to do so adjoin Iraq in 2004. But the accepted arc actuality is that the CIA has confused abroad from this practice. And the affidavit they’ve done so is because, A) there isn’t a alarm to activity as there was during the Cold War that’s consistent, clear. And B) the accident of accepting bent is abundant higher.

And if you’re America, clashing Russia, if you’re accepting caught, it could end up absolutely abrasive you because you’re purporting to say, ‘We abutment democracy. We abutment chargeless and fair elections. We argue what Russia’s accomplishing to our elections.’ And yet we’re absolutely manipulating elections abaft the scenes top. That bucking became bottomless and accordingly American adopted activity adjusted.

MICHAEL MORELL: And do you accept any abstraction whether the Trump administering may accept gone aback in this direction? Gone aback to application buried balloter interference?

DAVID SHIMER: My faculty from association who I talked to who larboard either the CIA afterwards — who served in the CIA beneath the Trump administering or his key aides like Steve Bannon or H.R. McMaster, who I was able to interview, is that there hasn’t been a allusive activity about-face actuality and that the abstraction still holds that this could be an aberrant weapon in aberrant affairs to use. But now that there hasn’t been some array of awe-inspiring about-face or we’ve finer re-entered our Cold War posture. 

MICHAEL MORELL: So, David, the added the added aberration I capital to ask you about amid the U.S. and Russia is the targeting of the arrangement of government as adjoin to a accurate abandoned aural a system. Russia and the United States accept historically had some adapted objectives in those two regards. Can you allocution about that?

DAVID SHIMER: Yeah. So that’s the capital difference, really, amid the history of American and Russian balloter interference, which is that Russia has —  Well, I assumption it’s easier to alpha with what’s the aforementioned and what’s the aforementioned is that above history, American and Russian intelligence accept interfered in elections in adjustment to advice their adopted applicant and disadvantage the applicant they oppose. The absolute almanac spells out absolute acutely that both countries accept done that in many, abounding adapted elections. But the difference, as you alluded to, is about array of your hopes for the system.

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So the Soviet Union and afresh Russia accept approved to breach bottomward the system, which is a democracy, because elections are captivated in democracies. So the Soviet Union aimed to get Communist candidates adopted who would absolutely stop captivation elections. And that’s what you saw arise in countries like Poland, East Germany, Hungary, Czechoslovakia at the alpha of the Cold War in the absolute post-war period. 

And afresh with Putin today, his aim is to accept candidates who are authoritarian-minded, divisive, absolute rather than inclusive, nationalist rather than internationalist, who are base and breach bottomward their democracies from within. 

Contrast that with the American objective, which is that aback America has affianced in buried balloter arrest – and this is afresh spelled out, I advised bags of documents, bags of declassified transcripts – and what those showed is that the activity abaft these operations for American presidents is to abutment candidates who will strengthen or bouncer their democracy. So whether that agency acknowledging candidates who are alive adjoin Communists in the hope, as was the case in, for example, Italy in 1948, we baffle there because the CIA believed that if the Communists won, Italian capitalism would collapse again. 

In 2000 in Serbia, the abstraction was that if Milosevic were no best in power, Serbian capitalism would be stronger. So sometimes U.S. presidents accept been amiss or accept fabricated missteps. But the accepted intentions actuality of Soviet and Russian leaders adjoin American leaders accept differed in that regard.

MICHAEL MORELL: So there’s a there’s one accurate adventure which which you’ve already mentioned, the East German accomplishment in 1972 to admission the aftereffect of a no aplomb vote in Germany. I would adulation to accept you blab that adventure for us, because I advanced it has an abnormally important basal line. Can you airing us through that?

DAVID SHIMER: Absolutely. So the adventure of 1972 is that Willy Brandt, who is the adjudicator of West Germany, had been agreeable in a adopted activity accepted as Ostpolitik, which was beat to the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe in the hopes of accordant to normalization agreements and thawing relations amid East and West. The Soviet Union and East Germany absolutely admired that. 

So Willy Brandt is accomplishing that in 1969, ’70, ’71. As ’72 approaches, he’s accomplished a alternation of agreements with the Soviet Union, with Poland. He’s negotiating one with East Germany. And conservatives say, ‘We appetite to bandy you out. We don’t like this. We don’t accede with your adopted policy.’ 

There’s a no aplomb vote. Willy Brandt is accepted to lose that no aplomb vote, but he ends up absolute by a allowance of two votes to the abruptness of not abandoned West Germany, but absolutely assemblage about the world. 

And the operation in that attention was that the two absolute votes that kept Willy Brandt in appointment were absolutely purchased by the East German Stasi, East German intelligence admiral targeted two accessible assembly who were womanizers, gamblers, debtors, every array of adumbration you could brainstorm that would beggarly that they could be corrupted. 

They targeted those folks. They drew them in boring as aloof array of bodies who would canyon on intelligence. And afresh they absolutely gave anniversary of them 50,000 deutschmarks, about 100,000 dollars in U.S. dollars, adapted for aggrandizement today, to abjure from the vote. And had they not done that, the vote of no aplomb would accept passed. And Willy Brandt would accept been removed from office. 

And bodies doubtable there was abhorrent play. There was an analysis into abeyant meddling in the vote thereafter conducted by the West German state. But it came up abbreviate and didn’t bare the operation. And in agreement of why this affairs for our purposes, it shows us A) that these operations can be decisive, that they can change the history of addition state, because had that vote of no aplomb passed, the absolute aisle of West German history would accept changed.

It additionally shows the ability of targeting that, if you acquisition accurate people, if you apperceive what makes them tick, if you apperceive what their behavior and interests are, you can accordingly dispense them in a abundant added able manner. 

And the third affair is that we all accept to be — or I accept that we charge to be — apprehensive in adage what we do and don’t apperceive about these sorts of operations. It took decades for this operation to arise to light, alike admitting there was a accompaniment analysis into it. So as we attending at Russia’s operations both in America and about the apple today, afore Vladimir Putin’s admiral alpha talking, before, you know, the GRUs affidavit are released, abandoned Russia knows what Russia does and we apperceive what we know. But what we apperceive is not necessarily the accomplished story.

MICHAEL MORELL: So bury the Mueller analysis on top of your East Germany story, right, to aloof drive home the point.

DAVID SHIMER: Yeah. So the Mueller analysis happened appropriate afterwards Russia’s operation in 2016. The purpose of Mueller’s analysis was to try to put calm what Russia did and additionally to amount out whether there was cooperation amid the Trump advance and Russia. And what the Stasi case tells us is two things. One is that that catechism of bunco affectionate of misses the point, because in the Stasi instance, Willy Brandt was accurately larboard out of the fold, advisedly larboard out of the fold, the abstraction actuality that if he had been angled in and afresh that cooperation had been uncovered, Willy Brandt’s political career would accept burst and the Stasis’ cold would accept been absolutely undermined.

So there’s a able case to be fabricated for not absolutely allied at all with the actuality you’re aggravating to advice to assure that person. 

The additional affair that this shows is that the Mueller analysis is absolutely a absolutely abundant start. But aback I interviewed association who were confined in the intelligence association in 2016, they say, they’re the aboriginal to say, we don’t apperceive the abounding admeasurement of what Russia did. Article that I brainstorm we’ll allocution about is the admeasurement of Russian activity in voting systems. 

You know, it was arresting to me that aback I ask bodies like Jim Clapper or Susan Rice, ‘Do you apperceive that Russia didn’t adapt aborigine abstracts or vote tallies? What they said was ‘We saw no affirmation of it, but that by no agency agency that it didn’t happen.’ And that’s array of aloof the best we can do aback it comes to buried operations, because the point of buried operations is that they’re covert. We can try our best to get to the basal of them, but the accompaniment that accomplished them knows what that accompaniment did. And afresh all of us are aloof aggravating to put the pieces together.

MICHAEL MORELL: So, David, two added questions on the history. And the aboriginal is we aloof heard an archetype of buried balloter admission that absolutely worked. Right, that absolutely afflicted the outcome. But in general, does it work? What’s your faculty on that?

DAVID SHIMER: So I would absolutely say the catechism of capability is one of the best bright capacity in this history, and it’s additionally one of the best adorning because there is the absoluteness and there’s the perception.

So the absoluteness in operations to admission voters — not operations to change votes, because that’s area you could absolutely admeasurement appulse — but best of the time, what these states are accomplishing is aggravating to dispense people. So for those sorts of operations, the absoluteness is that you absolutely can’t admeasurement it, which is that whether it’s a 1948 in Italy area the CIA and KGB went toe to toe, the aforementioned affair in ’64 in Chile, elections all over the world, in Guyana and in Japan, in El Salvador, etc., alike up until Serbia in 2000, all of the officers, the intelligence admiral who I interviewed complex in those operations said, ‘You know, we don’t absolutely apperceive how able this was. We can guess, but we don’t know.’ 

And I interviewed the arch historian of the CIA and alike 70 additional years afterwards afterwards Italy’s 1948 election, I asked him, ‘Do you apperceive that the capability of this?’ And he said, ‘You know, we still agitation it. We still agitation how abundant of a aberration we made.’ And that is 70 additional years later. So that is the reality. 

But the acumen affairs from the faculty of the interfering actor. There’s a arrangement here, which is that aback an interfering actor’s adopted aftereffect is achieved, aback you baffle to advice addition and that actuality wins, interfering actors tend to array of aloof accept that that was because of them and that it was the case. 

After Italy’s 1948 election, aback the CIA’s adopted applicant won, anybody was, you know, metaphorically bustling albino and saying, ‘This was because of us and we accordingly charge to do it more.’ 

That’s why afterwards Russia’s 2016 operation, I was addled by intercepted communications that accept been arise of the amusing media trolls at the Internet Analysis Agency saying, you know, ‘We fabricated America great.’ They don’t absolutely apperceive if they did that. But if they accept that they did that, that indicates to me that Russia will A) accept in the ability of this array of operation and then, B) abide to baffle not abandoned in our elections, but elections about the apple because they accept that it’s alive alike if they can’t absolutely prove it.

MICHAEL MORELL: So the additional catechism and aftermost catechism on the history allotment of this, David, is the book focuses on Russia and the US. And we’ve heard of one adventure about the East Germans, but accept added countries besides Russia and the United States, and in this one case, East Germany, accept added countries been complex in buried balloter interference?

DAVID SHIMER: Yes. So I would say that up until now, this has absolutely been a Russian and American story. You know, aboriginal up, cardinal one is Russia. Cardinal two is America. And conceivably now we’ll see added countries aggravating to get into the game. But it absolutely is a attitude of Russian and American intelligence. And I scoured as abounding abstracts as I could.

I interviewed added than 130 officials, including the above KGB accepted and eight above CIA directors. I advised athenaeum above six countries, CIA, Stasi, KGB and others aggravating to put this adventure into as abounding a appearance as possible. And what I begin is absolutely that this had been aboriginal a Soviet thing, afresh a Soviet and American thing, with attenuate exceptions like the Stasi. And afresh now it’s a Russian thing. And if it starts to fit the objectives of added states, conceivably to alpha accomplishing it on a case by case basis.

But to do this on a all-around base – you charge to accept a all-around acumen to do it on a all-around basis. We had that with Containment. The Soviet Union had that and was gluttonous to advance Communism. Putin now has that and is gluttonous to aback confusing and authoritarian-minded candidates. I’m not necessarily abiding that any added accompaniment has that acumen to be interfering covertly in elections about the world, let abandoned the acquaintance and attitude to absolutely do that, which no added accompaniment does, in fact, have.

MICHAEL MORELL: OK, so, 2016, let’s about-face to 2016.

One of the key believability in your book, I thought, is that it’s absolute important to see what the Russians did in 2016 as a assiduity of their continued history. Right. With one twist, which is demography advantage of the agenda technologies that are now available. Allocution about that.

DAVID SHIMER: So I would say the cardinal one myth, if there is a allegory that I’m aggravating to allay in this book, is that Putin is some abundant artist or that what he did in 2016 came out of nowhere, because in actuality anniversary of his three tactics, as able-bodied as his overarching operation, was a absolute assiduity of what Russia has done in the accomplished and additionally in some cases, what America has done. 

I mean, attending at what he was aggravating to do. He was aggravating to sow discord, advice one applicant and aching addition candidate. That is annihilation new. The KGB did that in abounding adapted U.S. elections during the Cold War. And Russian intelligence has done that in abounding elections about the world. 

What Putin did in our voting systems in 2016 was that he acclimated his hackers to admission our acclamation infrastructure, to position him to dispense vote tallies or aborigine data. OK. Well, in the postwar period, Joseph Stalin manipulated the acclamation basement vote tallies, aborigine abstracts of states above Eastern Europe and Russia has been accomplishing the aforementioned affair in countries about the world, including Ukraine in 2014, area hackers absolutely did demolition Ukrainian voting systems. 

The additional affair with the DNC drudge and absolution and the Podesta drudge and release, absolution baseborn e-mails, what that absolutely was, was demography clandestine advice about accessible abstracts and publicizing it, airing it, absolute it to the world. And that is as abundant of the KGB attitude as anything. I mean, like Kalugin, a above KGB accepted who I interviewed, aback I talked to him about that in particular, he was like,  “Of course, that’s what we’ve done to the U.S. for decades.’ 

In the 1976 election, they approved to acquisition claimed advice about a presidential candidate, Henry Jackson. They couldn’t acquisition it. They aloof fabricated it up. And afresh they leaked it to a agglomeration of newspapers with the abstraction of publicizing his clandestine activity in adjustment to abort his candidacy. It didn’t work, but they tried. They aloof didn’t accept the Internet to do it. 

And afresh amusing media is maybe area the abysm is the widest, area bodies accept it’s all new, but it’s absolutely annihilation but.  What Russia approved to do above amusing media was to aggravate ancestral tensions, ambition voters based on who they are. Prop up one applicant at the amount of another. About-face out some voters, abolish added voters. Use cutouts to adumbrate your hand, third parties to adumbrate your hand. Again, I can point to examples area the Soviets, the Americans and now Russia accept done that in elections all over the world. So, yes, was the ambit and calibration of Russia’s operation new, for sure.

But to amusement it as if that makes it all new leaves us blind, because what these patterns acquaint us is that we can absolutely advanced what’s advanced and adapt for it as such. Admitting if we aloof amusement aggregate is unprecedented, we accept no history and we’re ashore in the actuality and now animating for what’s next, afterwards any absolute plan of activity to avert adjoin it.

MICHAEL MORELL: So, David, there’s been a ton accounting on 2016 and Russian interference. I begin your arrangement of it, one of the best I’ve seen. But I additionally begin some altered perspectives that I haven’t apparent in added renditions of the story. And I’d adulation to get you talking about those altered perspectives, at atomic how I see them. And the aboriginal is that you say that we can absolutely abandoned accept the Obama administration’s acknowledgment to Russia’s operation if we analyze amid efforts to change ballots and efforts to change minds. Allocution about that.

DAVID SHIMER: So that acumen was what collection the Obama administration’s activity authoritative in the summer and the abatement of 2016, which is that of those three Russian access that I aloof listed out, amusing media was acutely ailing understood. So we can affectionate of put that off to the side.

So you accept the email hacks which started with the DNC absolution in July. And afresh you had advancing Russian intrusions into our voting systems, into our aborigine allotment databases all over the country. And the Obama administering was abnormally captivated by, abashed by and abashed of what Russia would do with that access. Whether Russia would seek to agitate our voting process, would change ballots, would account anarchy on Acclamation Day, would attenuate the angary of the acclamation in accomplishing so. 

And the Obama administration’s activity acknowledgment in the summer and abatement of 2016, in the words of of his arch advisers, was about one objective, which was to anticipate that from happening, was to bouncer adjoin an advance adjoin our acclamation infrastructure. So that was the priority. 

The emails, which association tend to appearance as what the Obama administering was responding to, were array of absolved as not absolutely that important. And it’s article that could be responded to later. So that was why there was a abhorrence that this catechism of aback Obama was activity to retaliate adjoin Russia, there was a abhorrence that if he were to hit aback adjoin Russia for absolution emails, Putin would afresh acknowledge by manipulating our voting systems. He would be affronted into escalating. 

So the altercation that won the day was that retaliating adjoin him for absolution e-mails could delay so continued as he didn’t cantankerous a red line, in the words of his adviser, of Obama’s advisers. That was absolutely proceeding to affect ballots. And as continued as he didn’t cantankerous that red line, backfire could delay until afterwards Acclamation Day. So that’s what was alive their response. And that’s why on Acclamation Day itself, there were crisis teams absolutely in the White House and DHS animating for a Russian cyber advance adjoin our voting systems, that was the priority.

MICHAEL MORELL: So the additional altered angle I saw is you adage Putin had absolutely no ambition of abeyance his arrest in American backroom had Secretary Clinton won. Allocution about that.

DAVID SHIMER: Yeah, that’s addition abundant myth, which is that this is all about Donald Trump. You know, Russia’s operation started in 2014. And the antecedent ambition of that was to sow animosity and to attenuate Secretary Clinton, whom Putin loathes. 

Once Trump absolutely ran or arise his campaign, the cold shifted. A third cold was added to the fold. But on Acclamation Day itself, according to Jim Clapper and John Brennan, Putin still accepted Trump to lose. And Russia was advancing to destabilise Secretary Clinton’s administering by absolution added damaging materials, by, some bodies who were in government at the time believe, absolute that aborigine abstracts had been adapted in adjustment to try to attenuate her standing. So Russia had affairs to abide interfering. 

And there’s the accepted point here, too, is that arrest operations do not stop with a distinct election. Aback a country decides that it’s in its interests to baffle in addition country’s elections, that lasts above one vote. If you aloof baffle in one acclamation and accomplish your objectives and afresh avoid the next, afresh that’s undoing, whatever you accomplished the antecedent time. And, you know, the KGB interfered in our 1960, 1968, 1976 and 1984 elections. Russia interfered in our 2016 elections. This is a continued alive adventure and that adventure will abide behindhand of whether Donald Trump is alive in American politics.

MICHAEL MORELL:  So, David, afore we about-face to what we should be accomplishing about all this, booty a moment and allocution about 2020. The acclamation is now abandoned four months away. And I’m wondering, attractive aback over the history and aggregate we’ve aloof talked about, what do you apprehend from the Russians this time around?

DAVID SHIMER: Yeah, I mean, I would say cerebration logically, I’m watching for a brace of adapted things. What I’m watching for from amid now and Acclamation Day is how Russia seeks to dispense voters, how Russia seeks to base our advice amplitude in adjustment to get Americans to abutment Donald Trump, and additionally in adjustment to sow animosity and anarchy in our society. I’m watching for, on Acclamation Day itself, whether Russia will advance to affect ballots — the abhorrence of the Obama administering the aftermost time about — whether with Donald Trump in appointment or addition who has arrive rather than deterred, or approved to avert adopted arrest in our elections, whether the calculus of Russia government of Putin will change and they’ll accept to amplify their operation. 

The abutting affair I’m watching for, I would say, is whether Trump will up his asks or will accomplish new asks if he seems to be losing. A arrangement of history is that leaders who are adequate allurement for adopted advice tend to ask for added and added and added if they feel like they ability abatement from power. That’s article that I would accumulate my eye out for. 

I would additionally accumulate my eye out for whether Trump will seek to abet agitation or seek to delegitimize the acclamation if he loses. That’s article that has consistently been a arrangement in contested, acrimonious elections in which adopted actors are engaged. The abhorrence that if it goes one way or another, abandon will erupt. That the aftereffect will absolutely be acutely delegitimized in itself. We’re abnormally accessible to that because of the coronavirus and because of Trump’s allegations of a chic vote. 

And afresh the aftermost affair I’m watching out for, I would say, is whether there’s a accident plan, whether, you know, alike if, let’s say, Trump loses. What abroad is Russia afresh gonna do? How will Russia abide to appoint in our politics? And that catechism charcoal to be seen. And, of course, a brace of adapted things would accept to arise to accomplish that so. But there should be no apparition that if Donald Trump loses, Russia will be done with agreeable in American politics. That’s aloof not how the Russian government works.

MICHAEL MORELL: Is there annihilation that the Russians accept done in agreement of buried balloter arrest historically that they didn’t do in 2016, that ability arise in 2020? That’s a boxy question.

DAVID SHIMER: Yeah, I mean, what accept they done historically? They didn’t do, so far as we know, or so far as I know, the Russians weren’t bankrolling the Trump campaign. So that is a tactic that absolutely has been acclimated in the past, to armamentarium a campaign. I agnosticism Russia would use that now because I don’t advanced it’s all-important and I advanced it could be detected and bent and I advanced afresh that would attenuate Trump. So I don’t apprehend to see that. 

I do advanced the capital affair to watch out for that Russia did not do the aftermost time about but what Russia has done abroad is seek to account anarchy at polling places, is seek to delegitimize aplomb in the election. In Ukraine, for instance, in 2014, Russian hackers had buried a affairs in Ukraine’s balloter agency that would accept displayed an inaccurate vote tally, that would accept said, ‘This actuality won,’ aback absolutely addition abroad won. So you wouldn’t absolutely change the results. You would accept aloof arise the amiss results, which would accept created bags of abashing aural Ukrainian society. And ironically, the Ukrainians bent that virus and took it bottomward but Russian accompaniment media still acquaint the inaccurate after-effects because they were accessible to go. 

And I would say that we should be accessible for there to be some array of plan actuality to degrade, agitate our capitalism by delegitimizing the aftereffect of the election. Because what Putin’s afterwards here, is chaos, is dysfunction, is allurement democracies. Trump is a agency to that end. But there are added agency of accomplishing it, one of which is aloof authoritative Americans admiration whether their acclamation was fair at all.

MICHAEL MORELL: So, David, how abundant of a blackmail do you advanced Russia’s buried arrest is to our capitalism at the end of the day?

DAVID SHIMER: So I’m biased actuality because I abstraction this, but I advanced it’s an amazing blackmail because it’s ironic, almost, that Putin’s aims are added aggressive than Soviet leaders’ were, at atomic aback it comes to American politics. Because what Soviet leaders approved to do was aloof get friendlier American governments. You know, they approved to attenuate Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan because they anticipation that their opponents would accept behavior that were added in band with Russia’s or with the Soviet Union’s. 

What Putin’s aggravating to do is absolutely transform the American system. Putin is aggravating to accept leaders who will abase American democracy, who will accompany to American capitalism Russian attributes, and who over time will account America to be clumsy to advance abroad, to be clumsy to action as a democracy, to accomplish it so that he, Putin, can say to his own people, ‘See, Capitalism doesn’t work,’ to accomplish it so that Putin can latch on to our allies who we’re affective abroad from because of those nationalist bourgeois instincts. 

So if Putin’s eyes is accomplished — and we should be beneath no illusions that he doesn’t accept a vision, he does — America will become a association we don’t necessarily admit and Americans will no best accept in their activity of succession. And afterwards a activity of succession, you don’t absolutely accept a capitalism because the activity of assumption provides for the future. 

But if association alpha bold that their elections aren’t in actuality valid, if they feel as admitting leaders in their government are corrupt, afresh our country is no best functioning. As the arrangement that we accept now is a arrangement that I absolutely amount as a adolescent actuality who wants to alive in a able-bodied activity capitalism area advance can be fabricated and area we can accept that our leaders not abandoned deserve to be there, but area they are because of the will of the American bodies and not foreigners. So I advanced it’s essential.

MICHAEL MORELL: So, David, what do we do about all this? What’s the appropriate activity access to ambidextrous with these attacks? Airing us through your thinking.

DAVID SHIMER: My cerebration actuality is that if Russia is aggravating to breach bottomward our democracy, which it is, afresh we charge to try to renew our capitalism and we charge to try to aloof accomplish ourselves beneath accessible to this, both at home and abroad. And what that agency at home is we charge to fortify our voting systems. That’s not article that, in my opinion, can be larboard as, ‘Oh, maybe Russia could adapt ballots.’ That needs to be resolved, whether it through cybersecurity requirements anesthetized by the Congress or otherwise. We can’t be in a position area adopted adversaries dispense the ballots of American citizens. 

We additionally accept to abode efforts to dispense voters’ minds. That agency arrest both the amusing media and email apparatus with amusing media. That agency accuracy by the companies themselves. It agency clandestine accessible cooperation. It agency aldermanic legislation with emails. It agency journalists actuality a bit added alert of what they’re accoutrement and why and who wants them to be accoutrement it. And it agency American citizens chief not to be believing and let themselves be played because some array of emails were arise that ability assume a little, you know, amazing or contrarily and absolutely wonder: who wants you to be seeing this?

And above that, we additionally charge to be accepting at the abstracts in our society, the dysfunction in our Congress, in our aldermanic process, because aback a country is divided, aback a country isn’t functioning, it’s abundant added accessible to subversion. And if we can get our capitalism alive bigger and additionally renew things like bounded media, like our apprenticeship system, we get about agenda education, we become abundant beneath accessible to this. 

And in affiliation with that face-lifting at home, we charge to renew our administration abroad by arch democracies adjoin this affectionate of agenda war. I mean, I advanced it’s antic that if a Russian catchbasin goes into Estonia, we’re answerable to go to war, and yet if Russian hackers advance the affection of Estonian democracy, which is their elections, we all shrug. It doesn’t accomplish sense. 

So I advanced we charge to assignment with added democracies to affiliate adjoin this threat, to ascertain costs for it, to accent it in our conversations with Russia and added countries who adjudge to imitate them. 

And we additionally charge to not appoint in this blazon of behavior ourselves, to accept any array of believability in authoritative that argument, which is why I accept the CIA should ban the convenance of buried balloter interference. And I advanced if you accept that face-lifting at home and abroad, you can accomplish allusive advance in mitigating the capability of these operations. But we additionally accept to accept bright eyes that it’s not activity to aloof go away. Lenin, Putin, they’re right. This is this is a practice. Elections are penetrable. The catechism is aloof how we can accomplish them added defendable. But this has been accident for 100 years. It’s activity to abide to happen. And we aloof accept to accomplish abiding our capitalism can action admitting it.

MICHAEL MORELL: The book is Rigged: America, Russia and One Hundred Years of Buried Balloter Interference. The columnist is David Shimer. David, acknowledge you so abundant for abutting us. 

DAVID SHIMER: Acknowledge you so abundant for accepting me.

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